Episode 6: Emilia Antevska, Quality Assurance Lead

Hazel Rowe (: 00:03

Hello Amelia, welcome to Women in Audit podcast. Maybe you could let our listeners know exactly who you are and what you do please.

Emilia Antevska (: 00:14

Hi Hazel, firstly, many thanks for inviting me to your Women in Audit podcast series to talk about my personal experience as a woman in audit. So my name is Emilia Antewska, I currently work within audit services as a vice president for Northern Trust and I have...

a long lasting long career in audit which started more than 20 years ago now.

Hazel Rowe (: 00:52

Could you maybe let us know, obviously you've moved to the UK, what made you decide to come to the UK and how you came to be here?

Emilia Antevska (: 01:06

Okay, so I started my career in auditing a bit by chance and I tend to say it's not me who found auditing, it's the other way around, it's more like auditing found me and I'll give a bit of a context for that. So I graduated in economics with majors in finance and marketing towards the

late 90s in Macedonia, which is my home country. And at that time, auditing was quite a new profession in Macedonia, if I may say. So I graduated and I was looking for a professional job, maybe for around two years. And it was really hard at the time to find any professional jobs.

So I wasn't specifically looking for auditing. And then a friend of mine contacted me and she told me there was this new office which was being opened in Skopje where I come from, which was a Deloitte's office. Apparently it was one of the big 10 at that time. And they were looking for some auditors and I just thought, hmm.

That's interesting. And to be honest, at that time, I didn't even know what auditing is. So I applied for the job and I had to Google it to make sure I know what auditing is. And the interview was with this manager who came from Australia to set up the office, the Deloitte office in Skopje. And it was going to be in English and Macedonian is my home language. But...

I was lucky enough that I could fluently speak English and I applied for the job, like I said, and I wasn't even sure if I was pronouncing auditing correctly. So I went for the interview and I basically got the job as a junior auditor or an auditor for the Deloitte office. And that's how I started in audit.

Hazel Rowe (: 03:28

I noticed that you left your hometown and then moved to London to actually work for one of the London boroughs, the council, and then moved into IT audit. How come you transitioned into that?

Emilia Antevska (: 03:37

Yeah.

Emilia Antevska (: 03:42

Yeah.

Emilia Antevska (: 03:47

Yes, so there is a bit of a story to that. So like after I've initially started with Deloitte, I then moved into internal auditing in Macedonia and also consultancy and advisory services. So I had a few jobs to do with auditing in one way or another. And then

I moved to the UK due to personal reasons and having come from a different country, moving to the UK in a way I had to actually reset my career and start over again after having a very successful career in Macedonia. So I moved here and started looking for a job.

And I was basically just looking for any type of job to do with auditing. And I was lucky enough to get a contract job within the internal audit function for one of the London boroughs. Like you said, I worked with great teams. I got to learn a lot about how the boroughs are functioning.

and a lot about the services they were providing, a lot about the data they were managing and so on. So I had a really great experience working for the London Borough.

Hazel Rowe (: 05:34

And then obviously you've transitioned your career now into purely technology, obviously for the transport of London, which must have been quite interesting. How did you make that transition actually into banking? And what made you, I suppose, you know, could have chosen other areas apart from technology. So what made you want to go into that area of audit?

Emilia Antevska (: 05:40

in.

Emilia Antevska (: 06:02

So while I was working at the council or the London borough, I got exposure to some technology aspects. So I would do internal audits, which had to do with security of data. Then I would do some engagements, which had to do with security of systems, with resiliency and so on. And I've always...

sort of been very into technology and very interested in information security. So I've always wanted to know what it is that organizations can do actually to protect the data better. So while having a finance background and studying economics, I sort of thought, well,

Technology is really what excites me. So I want to learn more about that. And when I joined Transport for London, I joined initially at Metronet, as some of you might remember, which was one of the subsidiaries of TFL that managed a couple of the lines. So it was a very small internal audit team, which was just being formed.

And it was a team of when I joined three other people, including the head of audit. And he sort of asked us what it is that we would like to work on, which risks. And I expressed my interest in doing more on the technology side and on the fraud side as well. And on the risk side.

So I sort of started building the universe for the technological aspects and information aspects and built the stakeholder engagement on that side to understand more about the risks and so on. So, and doing that made me realize, well, really, this is what I want to do and this is what I want to specialize in.

Emilia Antevska (: 08:25

And then I started pursuing that. And then when I moved to TFL, yeah, I joined the tech audits team there. And I got my CISA, which is like a certified information systems auditor. And that's how I got into tech auditing.

Hazel Rowe (: 08:45

Great. And so therefore you up skilled then doing the CSER qualification. Did you have to do any other technology qualifications or was that sort of more to in -house tool? How did you go about that?

Emilia Antevska (: 09:01

Okay, so as internal auditors, so that's one thing about auditing. It's always about continuous learning and continuously upskilling and learning new things. So I had to, yes. So the Certified Information Systems Auditor Qualification captures...

a lot of aspects of technology, but I've also done like ITIL, PRINCE, which is a project methodology. So I would learn about anything. And then when I was promoted to an audit manager within Transport for London, I actually had to learn a lot about SAP ERP and how SAP works.

and I had to build in the in -house capability for the audit function to audit sub -IRPs. So I had to basically become an SME in the space.

Hazel Rowe (: 10:15

Okay, great.

Hazel Rowe (: 00:01

And in terms of then moving to Royal Bank of Scotland, you started your career. Did you actively go out then and interview for banking roles? Was that your next choice? How did you fall into that?

Emilia Antevska (: 00:14

Yes, yes. So I had worked in the financial services space before, but from an external audit perspective when I was at Deloitte and while I was a TFL and I stayed there for nearly nine years, I just thought, well, I need a new challenge and financial services had.

always attracted me as an industry. And I just knew that's why I wanted to go next. So I started looking for jobs in the financial services space. And I talked to a number of recruiters. And the challenge I was getting was I was often being asked, well, you work,

in the transportation industry. And now you want to go into financial services industry and how are you going to manage that transition? So from a tech perspective, so what I would try to explain is that from a tech perspective, actually there's loads of similarities and there are certain

aspects which are applicable to all or across all industries. And to me, like I said, it always starts with data and it's about security of data. So what it is that you do to protect the data and whether you do it from a cyber security perspective or from an operational resilience perspective or from an application perspective or from an infrastructure perspective and so on. It always comes down.

to security of data. And what I would explain, so the infrastructure from a tech perspective and the networks, I mean, they do tend to have commonalities across industries and also, you know, so the skills are basically transferable and auditing skills like on the soft side are also transferable. So the move across industries,

Emilia Antevska (: 02:39

is something you can do actually.

Hazel Rowe (: 02:44

And dealing with sort of the financial services, technology stakeholders within these global banks that you've worked for, or big banks as well, do you find that people coming from other industries are able to cope with the communication into financial services?

Emilia Antevska (: 03:10

Yes, so that's an interesting one. I think, yes, broadly, I think what I've seen, it's mainly within financial services. We do get people from different backgrounds and we do get people coming into internal audit from the big four who have been engaged in...

risk assurance services and consultancy services. We do get people coming from the industry. And I think they can be successful. So obviously you do need to learn about how financial services operates. And there's a lot of like regulatory aspects and regulatory legislation which...

which internal auditors within financial services need to be aware of. But it's like learning any other business. And even within financial services, all organizations, I would say, are different as to how they've... I'm speaking, of course, from an internal audit perspective, like how they've organized themselves.

And so you would need to learn whether you come from a financial services organization or from another organization, you would still need to learn and understand how the organization you're in at that moment works and also how internal audit works.

Hazel Rowe (: 04:55

And you've moved now from sort of technology more into strategic roles, if I can say, and quality assurance. How have you been able to do that from a technology standpoint? And why have you moved that choice to move away, move into more of a strategic role, let's say?

Emilia Antevska (: 05:08

on

Emilia Antevska (: 05:16

So again, I was within the tech audit space for I think around 13 years. So initially, like we talked earlier in Transport of London, where I stayed for nearly nine years and then I went to RPS and Lloyds and the way...

The audit teams are organized in most financial services, large banks or organizations is that the audit teams tend to specialize in a certain area. So it won't be just like, for example, what I'm trying to get to is while in TFL, we would cover, my team would cover everything to do with technology, starting from cyber security.

applications, infrastructure, data and so on. Within the financial services, especially the large big organisations, the tech quality teams would be organised in teams that specialised in, for example, cyber, teams that specialise in infrastructure, teams that specialise in applications, etc. So I was sort of working within

fairly specialized auditing in my jobs in the financial services industry. And then it just felt that perhaps it was time for me to do something different where, you know, I can basically expand my skills, learn something new, but also apply

my skills which I've gained through the various diverse jobs I had before and sort of approach for this quality assurance role. And I initially started, you know, focusing on tech quality assurance, but then considering my background as like I said, I've got background in finance as well. And

Emilia Antevska (: 07:43

and so on and I just wanted to learn more about the business. It just made sense that I do more, which has given me great opportunities to learn a lot about how the organization works.

Hazel Rowe (: 07:59

How do you think we can attract more women in technology, innovation, typing, internal audit positions?

Emilia Antevska (: 08:10

Yeah, so from talking to younger people like, let's say Generation Z and so on, I think there is a perception across younger people, including younger women, that you know, have to, you know, you can't be in audit if you're a tech person.

or that perhaps it wouldn't be so exciting as doing something tech like software development or maybe even project management or whatever it is that you think tech should be. And a lot of people who come from tech background, I think at least people I've spoken with tend to think that, you know, all the thing is...

Well, let's say they might think that auditing may not be as exciting, that it might be a bit boring and they would need to, you know, a lot of paperwork and so on. So I think the way to attract more women from tech backgrounds into auditing is to actually talk about auditing more.

and to explain that auditing offers all these opportunities, like great opportunities, which other functions within organizations don't really offer. So for one thing, that's the opportunity to learn about the organization, to get the top -down view and also the bottom -up view. So to learn about the strategy of the organization, to learn about

you know, the growth organization risks which the organization is facing. And then each audit is different. It rarely happens that you do the same audit twice. Firstly, because, you know, you tend to do different things to ensure adequate coverage of risks, but also because organizations change and the risks evolve and...

Emilia Antevska (: 10:35

as auditors we tend to, we should provide risk -based audit coverage and focus on the material risks for the organisation. And they change, we've got new risks emerging all the time. So I think educating and maybe even advertising auditing as a profession, especially internal auditing, which actually offers a lot of opportunities for learning.

and upskilling. And so, yes, I think that's what we can do to attract more women, especially women from tech backgrounds into ODD.

Hazel Rowe (: 11:21

And do you think that really people just see sort of technology as more of a mal -dominated industry and you know feel that maybe emotional chances might not be there as well?

Emilia Antevska (: 11:37

Yes, so technology historically has tended to be a male dominated industry. And I would dare say including tech audit. But I see more and more women in the space. I mean, and there is a lot of initiatives going around which actually help women.

get into tech more and into tech auditing as well and various forums, various organizations or networking opportunities for women to get connected with other women in tech.

Hazel Rowe (: 12:33

And do you feel then the difference between women doing technology audit and men, not to silo it too much, but do you think that women bring different skills to the table?

Emilia Antevska (: 12:46

Yes. Well, I mean, I wouldn't make it gender specific. So we're all unique and we all bring different skill sets to the organizations we work for. And that's what's great about organizations who put diversity and inclusion as the top priority.

So they tend to bring people from various backgrounds together. But I would say the skills which are important for all auditors are whether they're male or female, or I'm talking again about internal auditors, are like focus on continuous development, curiosity, desire to learn. But equally,

you know, courage and compassion and communication.

Hazel Rowe (: 13:51

Yeah, it's a general trend, right? Empathy and yeah, across all businesses now in whichever role you do. Okay. And in terms of why do you think will you grow internal audit is a good career to stay in?

Emilia Antevska (: 13:57

Yeah.

Emilia Antevska (: 14:12

Yes, I think internal audit is a great career to stay in. So, I mean, but this is me, the career audit, who is saying that because obviously I've been doing internal auditing for years now. And I think it's great because it offers fluidity in terms of...

You can move within internal audit, like change different teams, specialize in different areas of auditing. But you can also move across lines of defense. So there's a lot of auditors who, because of the skill sets they have as risk and controls specialists, are very...

valuable to the other lines of defence, like first line of defence and second line of defence. And I've seen movement in red space where internal auditors move to first and second line and actually they help build, sound other lines of defence. I've seen the other way round, like we've got across the financial services.

a lot of estimates coming from the business or from other lines of defence, which is again great because internal audit needs that expertise coming from people who know directly from the business. So I think it's a great opportunity to actually, like I said, learn about any organisation, about any business and then

learn skills which you can apply to different scenarios and different jobs.

Hazel Rowe (: 16:12

Sure. And would you say that this is what sort of correct, you know, kept you in internal audit then, the moving out into the business?

Emilia Antevska (: 16:20

Yes, yes, I would say I do love auditing, I have to say. Which might sound an interesting thing for some, but I do think auditors do bring value to the business and add value. And I think that's what's kept me in audit, because there's something like special in helping.

the business do better. So that's how I see it. I see it as helping the business better manage their risks and achieve their objectives and goals. And to me it's really rewarding. So that's why I love auditing.

Hazel Rowe (: 17:10

So what's been your biggest achievement in your career thus far then Amelia?

Emilia Antevska (: 17:16

Oh, this is a difficult one. And I was thinking, I my biggest, I think whenever my teams or the teams I've been working with have made a big difference, like a difference to the business by helping the business achieve better, including managing virus better, it's been...

a great achievement for me. But also, I would say, like you mentioned earlier, like helping, I've worked with a few people who have come from tech background, who then I have helped, you know, develop auditing skills and learn about audit and develop.

passion for auditing and you know for me that's personally it's a great achievement because you know they're still in audit, they're still doing it so or if they've moved elsewhere in the business but they apply their auditing skills and knowledge they've got from audit so that's a big achievement but then as the mom I would say my great achievement is well yeah.

My greatest achievement is being able to work full -time in auditing while raising my daughter. So to me, that's my biggest achievement.

Hazel Rowe (: 18:54

Um.

Hazel Rowe (: 18:58

That's lovely. And did you, because not everybody can be a manager and I've spoken about this, you know, several times over on a podcast and a lot of people just think that, you know, you have to be a manager to getting anywhere in life. And, you know, it is very hard and, and which you sort of quite conscious that you wanted to mentor and, and.

a beer man manager or did you just fall into it? How did you learn to navigate that?

Emilia Antevska (: 19:32

Ah, yes, that's an interesting question, very good question. I think when I initially started managing teams back in Macedonia was I basically set up an internal audit department for the national telecommunications company. And...

That's when I first got to build a team. And actually, so I sort of had to manage the team to build a team, but also upscale the team and mentor the team and support the team in learning internal auditing. Well, actually I was learning a lot myself. So I was lucky enough to get all the...

right support that I needed at that time, like, you know, having external consultants from Deloitte to work with. Like I had a great partner to work with who helped me understand a lot about internal auditing. But, and then I had to work with my team to actually use any resource available to learn at that time.

to actually help the team grow their internal auditing skills. And it was quite challenging at that time. All we had, if I remember, was the cost of framework. We had some productivity. This is not to advertise anyone, but just like productivity audit guides. But we had to figure out how we built our own internal audit software, et cetera. And...

It was great to learn and grow with the team together. And I think it's great if we think about, yeah, leading teams is a responsibility, but we have to put the teams first. And only through growing our team, I mean, we can all grow. So, and...

Emilia Antevska (: 21:56

And it's a big responsibility and it's accountability for the people in the team. So it's a different role entirely, which is not to say if you're not a manager, you're not supposed to be a leader. I think every person working in audit, in internal audit is a leader through that interaction with the stakeholders.

through outlining the observations, every auditor is making an impact. And to that I see leadership.

Hazel Rowe (: 22:36

show.

I'm working for a global bank that you're doing now. And as you mentioned, having a daughter, how have you been able to sort of deal with the work -life balance of that?

Emilia Antevska (: 22:56

Yes, so I think flexibility in any organization, so not just in my control, in terms of supporting working mothers is really important. I mean, my daughter is a teenager now, so it's not that difficult for me, but I remember when she was a toddler and I was

commuting to London and it was quite challenging to say. And doing the round trips like breakfast club, picking up from after school club, et cetera. And what helped me at that time is the flexible working. I mean, I'm talking like some years ago now where I was able to actually, even years ago, start working from home even.

like one day a week, that was really helpful. And then even before COVID, when my daughter was also younger, I still had the opportunity to work more like from home. So I think the flexibility that employers offer to women, it's really encouraging and it means a lot nowadays.

Yeah, I can't imagine like having been able to do this like before the internet and I mean, yeah.

Hazel Rowe (: 24:31

Yeah.

I suppose you have to use quite a lot of your negotiation skills now than having a teenager, right? You have to change your management style.

Emilia Antevska (: 24:41

Yes, and I constantly have to refresh my knowledge and to upskill myself in terms of persuasion and negotiation, yes, making an impact.

Hazel Rowe (: 24:50

Yeah.

Hazel Rowe (: 24:56

So tell me, have you had any sort of notable mentors throughout your career that you could mention and tell us why?

Emilia Antevska (: 25:09

Oh, yeah, I've been lucky enough to work with a lot of great people. I really can't name anyone specific, but who've actually helped me develop a lot and learn a lot. And I can't emphasize enough the importance of having mentors and...

sponsors as well or even just having networks and people you can talk to on an ongoing basis. It's really important. So yeah, there's still people in my life who influence me daily.

Hazel Rowe (: 25:55

And do you feel that then, you know, moving into more senior roles or, you know, working in the industry for quite a long time, getting older, that, you know, just to constantly upskill and talk to people is important?

Emilia Antevska (: 26:15

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. That's like I said, the key skills for internal auditors are obviously, like I said, curiosity, focus on learning, continuous learning and having the hunger to do new things. So that's extremely important. I think...

But and I don't think it's just about auditing. It's about any profession really. So we constantly need to, if we like progression, we need to set goals and work towards those goals on an ongoing basis.

Hazel Rowe (: 27:04

So if there was anything you could tell your younger self, what would that be?

Emilia Antevska (: 27:09

I would say not everything has to be perfect. Be kind to yourself and be patient. I think patience and perseverance are really important.

and especially for auditors. But we don't have to be perfect and nobody's perfect.

Hazel Rowe (: 27:50

Yeah, great. Well, thank you very much for your time today. I'll finish off with a quick fire round of a couple of questions. Tell me, where is the best place you've visited and why?

Emilia Antevska (: 28:03

Oh, I would say I've got two or three. So I would say Egypt, Cairo, I'm just fascinated with, you know, ancient history and all the achievements so many thousands of years ago and how innovative they were at that time. And I've been there a couple of times.

But the thing actually I remember the most about Kyra is trying to ride a camel and how scared I was and how awkwardly I wanted to get off. And then it took me nearly 20 years to get on a camel again, which is what I did last year in Dubai with my daughter, which is another special place for me.

And also Scotland, the Highlands. Yes.

Hazel Rowe (: 29:07

Lovely. And tell me, are you reading up any particular book at the moment or listening to any podcasts?

Emilia Antevska (: 29:14

Yes, I'm very much into listening to audiobooks and podcasts. And I listen to quite a few all the time. So currently I'm listening to the book is called The Gifts of Imperfection by Brené Brown. And I like it because it talks a lot about

I think courage, compassion and connection or communication which relates to auditing in a way. And I'm listening this podcast which I just discovered a week or so ago which is called The Art of Speaking Up which is about empowering women.

It talks about different aspects and tools and skills to empower women and talks about how you can navigate a career in a corporate life. So yeah, quite interesting. It has around, I think, 300 episodes. So a lot to listen.

Hazel Rowe (: 30:24

Okay.

Hazel Rowe (: 30:29

Yeah. And what's your favorite way to spend a day off?

Emilia Antevska (: 30:35

Oh, well, just visiting new places around London or nearby. So just having a day out, visiting a village or a town, relaxing or doing some working out, like some exercise.

Hazel Rowe (: 31:05

Lovely. Thank you again very much for your time today.

Emilia Antevska (: 31:10

It's okay, thanks for having me.